Theories, anyone?
Jan. 28th, 2008 03:18 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
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Besides the fact that she's a main character and it wouldn't make sense to put it in anyone else but her...blahblahblah... I'm really curious to know why. And HOW did he do it? If there are only those two ways of extracting the Hougyoku from a soul (destroying the soul with the Soukyoku or by using that green arm thing), then how did Urahara PUT that dang thing in Rukia's soul in the first place? Was it in the gigai that he gave her? Theories, anyone? I can't think of a decent explanation. I can't see Byakuya knowingly letting Urahara do something like that to his precious sister.
And after watching that scene again, I can't help but feel this kind of "jealousy" (for lack of a better word) from Aizen towards Urahara. I'm beginning to picture the two of them back during their academy days with Urahara being the oh-so-cool-but-incredibly-smart scientist with all these great inventions and Aizen with not-so-great inventions of his own. And what if Aizen had something to do with Urahara being exiled? Yeah, creating a gigai that drains a shinigami's powers is bad, but I'm sure Mayuri can create things that can do way more worse than that.
While I'm still on the topic of Aizen, has is ever been revealed as to why he's doing all this? I know he wants to create a key, so he can enter the realm that the King is in and destroy him, but WHY?
Anyway, I'm just being a Bleach fanatic right now instead of studying. Please share your thoughts; all these theories are running around my brain and there isn't anywhere else where I can set them free except here.
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:01 am (UTC)*vaguely scratches head*
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 12:51 am (UTC)My only thoughts on "why Rukia" aren't much better than "because she's a main character," but I guess Urahara, being the wily opportunist he is, saw a chance to hide his little trinket in the first shinigami to wander by and seized the day. I have a feeling it was placed there via the gigai, but I don't know if I've actually seen evidence of that or I'm just speculating. Either way, I never really understood the gigai concept; it's too confusing. :P
And as for Aizen, doesn't he say something lofty and megalomaniacal about wanting to stand in heaven? Ah, here's something (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/14/) in chapter 178 (I'm not a manga reader, I just found this, so there may be better explanations out there). Maybe he thinks he's serving some higher purpose? Or he thinks he is the higher purpose? Maybe he's trying to make the world better? Maybe he's just power hungry. ??? Maybe he's just a bad guy because there needed to be a bad guy (though I suspect Kubo put a little more thought into Aizen's motivations than I can). I dunno, but it's interesting to think about.
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Date: 2008-01-29 01:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-30 01:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 01:12 am (UTC)The prevailing wisdom is that the gigai did not put the hougyoku into Rukia but that it was serving to hide it. I tend to be of the "stuff happens to main characters" camp and believe that Rukia will continue to be a prime player in the whole drama surrounding the hougyoku's creation and purpose and that Kubo's going to take another two, twenty years before he reveals what's what.
As for Aizen, there's a story waiting to be told. We know nothing of Aizen's motives. For the moment he's the generic megalomaniac villain and we're supposed to assume that he wants to assume the empty throne of G-d for the usual reason--power. Nah, that's too simple. I don't think Kubo would've gone to the trouble of giving him this nerd personality that covered bishie evil if Aizen was going to a flat villain. I expect VEDDY INTERESTING backstory one day.
And sure spanky o, start discussions here any ole time.
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Date: 2008-01-29 03:54 am (UTC)*shrugs* Honestly though I've heard many plausible theories. I try not to dwell on it or many of the other unanswered/unresolved issues, otherwise my head feels as if it will explode. I just keep my fingers crossed Kubo eventually answers/resolves most of them. :D
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Date: 2008-01-29 10:47 am (UTC)It probably isn't that way, seeing how Kubo-sensei's so often into details...
You're the first one I've seen questioning the reason why Aizen's doing it. There're lots of theories out there 'bout aizen+hogyoku+Rukia+gigai. Maybe you can find one that'll answer your question.
Me no help. Meep.
Bunnisteffi
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:51 pm (UTC)Therefore, Rukia herself was chosen because of this power, perhaps. She could protect herself and others, therefore, her power would protect - and perhaps even mask - the hyougoku, while she herself would be just unimportant or obscure enough not to attract the attention of anyone searching for the hyougoku. It must have been put in her soul, since it was extracted directly from her soul, and not her gigai.
as to HOW he did it... Well, Soul Society's scientists don't exactly follow the most sound ethical guidelines, and Urahara strikes me as someone who doesn't mind omitting information when it suits his purposes (Such as not informing Ichigo that he was risking unleashing his inner Hollow and being overpowered by it when he trained to go to Soul Society), so I imagine he could have secret snuck the Hyougoku into Rukia, Maybe covertly at night, maybe during some sort of routine medical checkup.
As for Aizen, I've mentioned this on BA Before (I post under the name Jobrill there), But I do think that at some point, the image of Aizen as a kindly, just man (And yes, maybe even a bit of a nerd as debbiechan put it, I've never thought of it that way, but it fits) may have been right on the money, and not an act at all. To me, the idea may be that the reason he wants to kill "The King" and put himself on the throne is to "fill the vacancy in Heaven."
Soul Society can be a very ugly and horrifying place. Perhaps Aizen was so taken aback by that that he became angry, bitter, maybe even a bit nihilistic, and decided to become the just and merciful God that he sees the world lacking: The God that would protect all souls, reunite the dead with their ancestors, and not condemn people to the Zaraki and Kusajishi districts of Soul Society for no apparent reason. Even if that means tearing down the universe and recreating it from scratch, even if that means using less than savory allies to get it done.
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Date: 2008-01-29 08:18 pm (UTC)Soul Society can be a very ugly and horrifying place. Perhaps Aizen was so taken aback by that that he became angry, bitter, maybe even a bit nihilistic, and decided to become the just and merciful God that he sees the world lacking: The God that would protect all souls, reunite the dead with their ancestors, and not condemn people to the Zaraki and Kusajishi districts of Soul Society for no apparent reason. Even if that means tearing down the universe and recreating it from scratch, even if that means using less than savory allies to get it done.
Yes. I've had this notion for a long while. Otherwise how could he convince Mr. Justice Tousen to follow him?
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Date: 2008-01-30 12:58 am (UTC)I don't think Aizen's intentions are much more than that he's seeing that the current God's actions are doing nothing for humanity and wants to improve on that. Though because the authority is kind of brainwashed (and we are kind of too) that no one should uprise against the King, his current actions are seen as evil. (Even though they do include killing and using questionable means to achieve something which on paper looks good.)
Man, I just love Soul Society's self-governing system. All uprisings are quashed by your higher ups if you're just a rookie and by the time you've risen to a position that would allow you to conceivably start an uprising that had a chance, your loyalty to your Captain means you wouldn't raise your sword to them.
Therefore, if you notice something's wrong with the system, you'll get cut down unless you keep it to yourself until you're a captain too.
I honestly do love their system. It's so messed up but does a brilliant job of making it seem as if it isn't.
As to the Rukia thing, I think Urahara was booted out both for the gigai and hougyoku, but the gigai was created to hide the hougyoku. So it was being stored in there, until a shinigami who had lost/transferred their powers/was severely weak wandered by.
Which'd explain why he didn't give the gigai to Isshin, because his powers are simply supressed/bound. I think a shinigami has to be near death or have almost no powers at all for the humanisation process to begin.
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Date: 2008-01-30 02:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-30 02:26 am (UTC)I watched the anime first but that scene is pretty much screen for panel exactly the same.
Reading the translations literally, I could see people getting the idea Rukia had it inside of her the entire time. It's obvious (to me) from what Aizen says that he started researching ways to reach heaven AFTER Urahara was exiled. I also believe that he knew a little of what Urahara was doing.
However, I think that Rukia's disappearance was what made Aizen connect the dots.
Certain bits of Rukia's personality lend her to being more likely to be in a state of little to no powers though. There's the Kaien issue as well honor/protection battles as well as the topics of those battles.
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Date: 2008-01-30 04:58 pm (UTC)Timeline is mostly like this:
-Urahara creates the Hougyoku and immediately seals it, more than 100 years ago
-He hides it in Rukia's soul as she was a baby at an unconfirmed time
-He makes that untraceable gigai and gets exiled (100 years ago)
-Rukia gets in troubles and he gave her the gigai to make her human and hide the Hougyoku forever (nowadays)
-Aizen finally finds out where the Hougyoku is hidden
The best way for Urahara to hide the Hougyoku was to hide it away from him, because he must have been watched by Aizen. It is clear in the manga that they have had that little story ongoing between them of spying one another for more than 100 years now. SO yeah, he wouldn't have keep it.
Now, if you noticed, Renji wanted to ask Urahara a question and there is little to no doubt that it was concerning Rukia. I guess the true question is: "why did you chose her?" or something alike. But that was certainly a decision made years ago; and that question, we still need to hear its reply, in the end, because all we got now are wild guesses.
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Date: 2008-01-30 05:05 pm (UTC)Also, as a small aside to the 'He made the item to remove it while still in SS' and in reference to 'He made the Hougyoku while exiled"--
In the chapter where this is discussed, the flashback panels where Urahara and the Hougyouku are discussed has Urahara wearing his captain's robe. Given these two things it's probably better to assume he made it before he was exiled.
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Date: 2008-01-31 10:26 am (UTC)The creation of the object that allowed Aizen to take the hyogoku out of Rukia was, in fact, not related to the hyogoku at all, but something he created in one of his experiments. Aizen found out about it by going through the record of all of Urahara's experiments. (You can find this out in chapter 176.)
As to the spying - there's no indication of Urahara spying on Aizen - but it's a fact that Aizen is very aware of the fact that Urahara is a genius scientist, and that Aizen himself is not, and is smart enough to recognize this. It stands to reason, then, that Aizen keep track of Urahara's works. Whether or not URAHARA is aware of Aizen, is another story entirely.
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Date: 2008-01-31 06:25 pm (UTC)I'd also like to point out the fact that he immediately sealed the Hougyoku and hid it. Why would he have done that if he wasn't aware of Aizen?
Bleach is just a giant chess, with Urahara and Aizen moving their pawns around, really.
And while I'm at it, a friend reading Japanese told me yesterday after I wrote this that there was a bit in the SOULs book that said that Rukia had the Hougyoku in her before she gave him her powers.
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Date: 2008-02-01 11:38 am (UTC)There's no indication either way that Urahara was aware of Aizen's experiments. Zero indication. He tried to first destroy the hyogoku, then hide it, not necessarily because he had immediately homed in on Aizen as being the Big Bad, but because he was smart enough to realize that his grand creation was the Soul Society equivalent of a nuclear bomb. Urahara sending Ichigo to Soul Society? Purely because he himself is physically unable to go back and get it. He uses Ichigo, because Ichigo is the strongest person connected to him, who is willing to go back and rescue Rukia.
The fact is, for all we know, Urahara was aiming for the rescue of Rukia just for safety's sake, and not necessarily because he KNEW that there was a Big Bad tipping the balance against him. Urahara isn't well connected enough to Soul Society to be aware of everything. He hasn't been there for at least 100 years, and we only get any "successful" results (I use "successful" loosely) of Aizen's experiments on Hollow's 50 years prior to the storyline.
I'd also like to address the point of Urahara being aware of Aizen's duplicity. There's no evidence for either side. I personally think, however, that Urahara wouldn't have been aware of Aizen, for several factors:
1) the amount of time Urahara has been away from Soul Society. As far as the readership is aware, nobody, except for Unohana, has ever penetrated Aizen's disguise unless he has willed it. Urahara has been away from Soul Society for 100 years, give or take. Prior to that, he and Aizen were both Captains, and realistically speaking, both would have been heavily involved with their own affairs (it's just that Urahara's affairs are Aizen's affairs too XD), and that of their own divisions. This brings me to my next point.
2) Aizen is smart enough to realize that Urahara is a very brilliant scientist. Urahara's imagination is what makes him brilliant. Urahara is kooky and I would say that he does not have limitations on what his imagination can give him. Urahara, was, frankly speaking, in a very good position to discover that something was Not Quite Right with Aizen. Both he and Unohana are geniuses in their fields - and both of them are smart enough to work something out, PROVIDED they are given the opportunities. Unohana had Aizen's Not!corpse. Urahara? As far as we are aware, has nothing.
3) Aizen is a genius manipulator. Not even Urahara can compete with him, because people ALWAYS know when Urahara is up to something, whereas the whole of Soul Society was fooled by Aizen. Enough said.
Also, if I could get the page number off you, so I can check where it says that Rukia had the hyogoku within her prior to her entering the living world?
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Date: 2008-01-31 04:36 am (UTC)I like this idea. I take it as Aizen's intentions are pure, it's just the end doesn't justify the means. Then again, I still kind of am hoping that Aizen is good (which is a far shot, but a fangirl can hope).
ZERG RUSH kekekekekeke ^_______^
Date: 2008-01-30 04:42 pm (UTC)I wanted to rebut the whole 'It was in the gigai' theory. I've made a post about this before on BA, so lemme just go ahead and link that if it's OK: http://www.bleachasylum.com/showpost.php?p=128492&postcount=1
Here's your sidebyside text comparisons and links to the original page and two different translation groups.
Another translation source: http://www.bleachasylum.com/showpost.php?p=129989&postcount=79
I also went ahead and had this page translated by a few independant translators-- so far, they all seem to agree with my analysis. Pocketmofo also looked over the page. PM's comment was that while the page had some difficult grammar and was hard to decide for either way, there was nothing to justify the 'gigai' theory entirely. When Rukia got the Hougyoku is hotly debated in Japan, but that she got it post entry to the living world is not an accepted theory. There's 0 evidence for it.
In short, it's far more likely given the text we have that she got it before Urahara was exiled. The gigai theory really has no weight given what we've been presented. If Aizen wanted the Hougyoku this whole time and knew Urahara had it and was just waiting for some random shinigami to shunt it in so he could hide it...Why on earth wouldn't Aizen have just went and got the damned thing from Urahara himself? Too much logic flaw-- that Rukia had it from the get-go makes much more sense and is better supported by the text.
I'm currently asking around for a translated blurb from the databooks about this issue, I will keep looking into it. Either way, the issue is by no means clear or decided yet.
I will make another post if I find out anything new! Sorry to intrude on your comm. (.____.);
Re: ZERG RUSH kekekekekeke ^_______^
Date: 2008-01-31 04:33 am (UTC)I don't think Urahara hid it in the gigai either. That's way too recent. I'm just curious as to WHEN he hid it, and as you said, that is unknown as of recent.
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Date: 2008-01-30 08:12 pm (UTC)The question I've been trying to figure out ever since we learn about the hougyoko is WHY did Urahara created it if he's just going to get rid of it after it was made? He's a scientist, didn't he have some idea that is was a dangerous object BEFORE creating it?
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Date: 2008-01-31 04:29 am (UTC)And I swear, Urahara can be so scary. He knows SO MUCH but hardly ever lets people in on what he knows or what he's thinking. If you think about it, it couldn't have been a mere coincidence that it happened to be Rukia to go to the real world and not someone else. He somehow had to have known that she was going to be the one to guard Kurakara Town. Unless maybe Ukitake had something to do with it too? Nah, that's just pure speculation. I mean, Ukitake has been around for a long while and had to have known Urahara and what kind of person he is. Bah, who knows?
Oh, and about the hougyoku: I wouldn't hold it past Urahara to create something just to prove he could create it. I don't know if that makes sense, but it seems like something he would do.
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Date: 2008-01-31 07:47 am (UTC)The same reason the Fellowship didn't just chuck the One Ring into a river.
He has more than 100 years since he was exiled to destroy the thing or hide it in some unknown soul.
Is he capable of destroying his finest work? Did he know how to best hide it? Did other methods of hiding the thing fail? Or not work to his satisfaction, because this is Urahara we're talking about, I get the impression that working halfassedly is not okay with him. What he did to Rukia- did he do it to another Shinigami before, and that Shinigami died?
The question I've been trying to figure out ever since we learn about the hougyoko is WHY did Urahara created it if he's just going to get rid of it after it was made? He's a scientist, didn't he have some idea that is was a dangerous object BEFORE creating it?
It's highly likely that a) Urahara just did NOT realize that it would be that dangerous. Intellectually, yes - but in actuality, perhaps it just hadn't sunk in. OR, that he'd get his ass kicked for being in possession of that object.
b) perhaps he created the hougyoku, thinking that he could harness the powers of hollows, but in practice, found that the whole HOLLOW aspect could not be overcome.
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Date: 2008-02-01 01:12 pm (UTC)I personally disagree, there; if anything, I'd say that there's more jealousy on Mayuri's part then on Aizen's. I also disagree with your point about Mayuri; between the two of them, Urahara is the more advanced scientist, with the subtler mind. The gigai that hides a shinigami's presence and drains their powers is very subtle. The vizard/arrancar technology never even seems to occur to Mayuri. Insta-bankai? It's UNHEARD of. Urahara breaks boundaries, and makes impossibilities become possibilities.
Mayuri's work, on the other hand, seems to be almost on a purely biological level. So far, what has been seen is that he experiments on shinigami, and that said shinigami die in various painful ways. He has made body modifications to himself that no doubt assist him in combat - but ten to one, Urahara is still the superior fighter - therefore rendering Mayuri's technology ineffective. Mayuri IS able to inject organisms into the bodies of his experiments, and then spy on them, and while it's very good for espionage, it's hardly on the level of what Urahara has done. Mayuri, in comparison, has made very mundane advances in technology.
- As for Rukia - I think it was purely opportunistic of Urahara. I think it was very much against his plans that she be arrested, before she could become ... fully human, and disappear. (I make him sound a lot colder than he is, but the rescue was probably part necessity, part guilt.)
Hi, I'm Beez =D. I stalk this comm because you write awesome essays. *put some of them into memories*
Gigai theory: DEBUNKED
Date: 2008-02-02 09:01 am (UTC)Now that that's settled, anyone want to move on to speculation on how she actually got it? I'm open for ideas. X____X;;
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Date: 2008-03-03 02:44 am (UTC)I believe other folks have already argued that Urahara stuck the Hougyoku in Rukia before he left Soul Society. As for the how, recall that the green-claw-in-chest method Aizen used to extract the Hougyoku was made according to Urahara's notes. This appears to be another of Urahara's inventions, and I imagine the same process or a variant can be used to implant matter in a soul.
The most interesting aspect of Urahara's soul container technique, IMO, is that he made sure the bearer wouldn't be harmed. Aizen was surprised Rukia survived his removal of the Hougyoku; he even complimented Urahara for achieving this. I assume it takes more time and effort to render green-claw-in-chest nonlethal. Why did Urahara go through such trouble when he needed to get rid of the Hougyoku ASAP?
One explanation, of course, is that Urahara's a perfectionist. What piques my curiosity is the possibility this whole scheme to forever hide the Hougyoku was never more than a last resort. That Urahara intended to continue looking for a way to destroy the thing but wanted a contingency plan in place. Also, there may have been other Hougyoku carriers before Rukia. I'd say Urahara himself. The Hougyoku isn't something to casually shelve in your lab, and the more elaborate your protections, the more suspicious it seems. Yet Urahara kept the Hougyoku a secret for however long it took him to design the revolutionary stealth gigai.
And what if Aizen had something to do with Urahara being exiled?
I think so, yes. For one, he'd never be able to pry the Hougyoku from Urahara without alerting all of Soul Society. Furthermore, though Aizen apparently knew of the Hougyoku soon after its creation, his intelligence was so spotty he didn't know what the thing looked like. An official investigation of Urahara and, presumably, confiscation of all his work would eventually put all the information Aizen desired in his reach. Well, provided Urahara hadn't already destroyed the evidence. Which I'm inclined to think he did because a) Aizen's still somewhat clueless about the Hougyoku and b) any researcher worth his salt would burn his notes in Urahara's situation. Finally, targeting Urahara conveniently broke up a very intimidating Shinigami power block: Yoruichi was sure to help Urahara; the two were likely close to the Shiba (Kukaku, Kaien, Isshin?) and might have dragged that house down to disgrace; Tessai was possibly high in the kidou corps and deserted same as Yoruichi. There's simply no downside for Aizen that I can see.
Supposing the above theory is true, I must disagree with
Actually, you get the Soul Society arc as Urahara trying to expose Aizen. Best case scenario: Ichigo et al. crash Rukia's execution. They save both her and the Hougyoku while their very presence spurs Aizen to make his move. The Shinigami catch Aizen red-handed...
Urahara almost won the round, IMO. Aizen, Gin, and Tousen would've been screwed if the Hollows hadn't pulled a last-minute rescue. Since Aizen's alliance with the Hollows flies in the face of Shinigami mores and was done in absolute secrecy decades after Urahara's exile, he can be forgiven for not taking that into account.
Yoruichi's a co-conspirator. I'd peg Kukaku, Ukitake, and Kyouraku as Urahara's Soul Society contacts. This would explain the very convenient timing of Rukia being sent to Karakura and Urahara right before Aizen finally discovered how and in whom the Hougyoku had been hidden.