![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
http://users.livejournal.com/_debbiechan_/ posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
bleachnessHappy Thanksgiving to Those Who Celebrate. My family doesn't but it's been a wonderful week for me in my fandom. I'm so thankful for all the fun and friends.
First a quick rec: a beautiful, absolutely beautiful piece of fiction that speaks to all my weaknesses--the RenIshi bond and the attention Ishida gives to Orihime. Even so, it's just plain good writing, emotional and descriptive and "real": Dimming Bright by
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
schweinstyNext up, how's about some shipping discussion? I enjoy it more than football. There's a lot of crap out there, lots of senseless squabbling, but recently some of the discourse on contextual stuffs was criticized by some: Why, one fan asked, do people insist on writing essays trying to convince people of their opinions when Kubo will eventually do whatever he wants?
This person is into the "fun" of shipping and comes from a particular ship recently given to elucidating its pairings subtext with numerology and Discovery channel videos of bald eagles mating (I kid you not---here's one of those Infamous 4chan threads that calls that particular fandom on its excesses).
Anyway, shipping essays grounded in geek literature post-modern classes are.... JUST AS FUN AS NUMEROLOGY! For a real ride, go to Bleach Asylum's Shipping Debate. Things get rocky but less rocky than one would expect and there's a lot of enjoyable nerdom in the discourse, attempts at empiricism, and recently I fangasmed over an exchange between Starwing and my man
sinta:WARNING: LONG
Starwing:
**I sought out my prof and discussed it with him just now. I didn't explain my point very well, I'm afraid. So I'm going to see if I can put it more simply, now that I understand my own argument a little more. XP
It's what is called the 'ghost in writing'. All writers have them. Though theoretically, the 'perfect' writer would not. The better a writer is, the less ghosts he/she has. And the closer Authorial intent resembles the resulting effect in readers.
In Writing:
Author Intent --> Written text/drawn panels/film/etc. --> Expected Audience reaction
However, we need to factor in the ghosts in the writing.
Intended text + ghost --> Expected and Unexpected audience reactions
In an editing process, the editor and author theoretically work together to get rid of the 'ghosts' or at least address them. Often, the ghost inspires the story to go in new directions. Ghosts in writing are not concrete (because if they're concrete, good writers wouldn't have them); rather they result of the transition of the story from the author's mind into the audiences'. They can result from cultural influences and differences in the readers. But they DO exist and MUST be accounted for.
HarryxHermione in HP, IMHO, was a ghost in writing. Something that is physically in the text that the author did not intend, that creates a specific reaction in the readers.
I do not believe the IchiHime vs. IchiRuki rivalry in the audience is a result of a ghost in writing. I believe Kubo intended this. But even if this wasn't Kubo's intention, Kubo still needs to address it. Although he doesn't have the same editing process that a writer would, his work is serialized and there is plenty of time to account for ghosts.
@debbie, I'm so glad you could follow that. ^^' I'm not very good at explaining, I'm afraid.
Sinta reacts to Starwing:
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing  @Sinta, lol, Hm, you're looking at it from a plot-development standpoint. I'm looking at what effect the text has on the audience, and whether there is any author intention behind it. |
I don’t think so, while you have take audience into account I think this would go against your theory, Inoue/Ichigo in japan is basically a non-issue, it so overwhelmingly unpopular.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing Let's see... Once again, in VII, Cloud, Aeris and Tifa formed an obvious, established love triangle. Upon Aeris' death, there is no indication that Cloud will return Tifa's feelings. However, the audience then accepted CloudxTifa as the most likely pairing. The game (and the movie) ends in a highly CloudxTifa note, even without Cloud once expressing an interest. Why? Because some things don't require heavy developments for the audience to accept. |
The problem with this comparison is that VII is very distinguishable from Bleach, there was a base for Tifa to go for Cloud unlike in Bleach. I do think people will think in the alternative if not Ichigo/Rukia then Ichigo/inoue, but it doesn’t mean the Kubo meant to set it up that way and that is whats important. You take your audience into account, but no self respecting story teller and author is going to change the flow, purpose and plot of their story for their audience. It is my story, if you don’t like it that is your problem I think if that was the case and seeing how popular Ichigo and Rukia are he would developed it much faster. He’s doing things at this own pace. Furthermore, change things in the plot because of commercial reasons or fan reaction would often make the story inconsistent; Bleach of all things is consistent.
Some things don’t need heavy development but they need enough to stand on their own independent entity especially a couple. You need enough development that, when it happens you don’t have a WTF look on your face.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing I'll have to disagree with you here. A story is essentially about the audience; plot, development, characterization comes secondary to that. |
When I write I don’t write what I think an audience would like, I write it because that is how I want it written. I have a specific story that I am trying to tell; you as an audience are just along for the ride. If you don’t like it you need to get off that ride. So I would say the exact opposite; Plot, Development etc comes first. Everything else is just details. I think that’s how most writers, especially in the fantasy area write. They write the story they want thinking that there will be some place for their story.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing If a story successfully makes the majority of the audience FEEL that there is a triangle and a competition, then IMHO, that over-rides even the original text. I hate to bring up HP, but if we're just looking at the HarryxHermione and HarryxGinny shippers - by your definition, was it ever a real love triangle? No. However, it had a much greater effect than most real love triangles I know, because it generated such strong reader response, and had the same effect. |
JK Rowling never had a real triangle, she said so herself, People see what they want, that doesn’t mean the author has any intention of placing two characters together or turning into a mutually dependant relationship. Inoue’s development of the last 130 chapters have been mostly about her. They just happen to have some ichigo moments which are Ichigo/Inoue moments for the sole reason that she likes him. I also don’t think that the majority of people think there is a love triangle, at not the people whom this is being written for.
Let me illustrate, Tenpa tenga Gurren Langann, it is a prime example of the audience misunderstanding of the writers intent and provides strong evidence against your "Results theory".
Many of the issues we are dicussing about plot, flow, outside influence etc played a part in this widely regarded anime. Despite the fans reaction the exact situation we are discusing (the exisitence of a love triangle and mutually dependant relationship) the issues were never discussed. They thought that the girl who had become the initial love interest would create a love triangle with the seconedary character who became the lead; Yoko (Initial love interest; had an a very strong IRR with the main character) Simon (lead) and Nia (secondary turned lead) had all the potential for a love triangle. But again this was never the intention of the author, Yoko feelings were never displayed or commented upon again, either was Simon’s. And you should know that Simon’s feelings for Yoko was HUGE to the plot in the beginning of the story. Huge. The reason that Harry/Hermonie/Ginny seem to have such a great effect is there were just so many fans. There is also a fundetmenal difference to Bleach. The fact that Hermonie was Harry’s best female trusted each other, spent an overwhelming amount of time sharing etc and the topic was never really even breached between the two goes against people’s understanding of female male interaction. What do I mean? They spent that much time together and it never crossed their mind that they might be good for another? People look at their potential IRR and compare that to Ginny which was very sudden in regards to Harry and are like WTF. I am getting off topic, sorry. In short, people saw what they wanted, and the author did what they had always planned regardless of what the fans said. There was resolution but there was no love triangle, regardless of the effect on the readers and wha tthey percived
Another thing you need to consider is WHO is the audience; most of Japan, again, doesn’t think that there is a love triangle between Ichigo/inoue/Rukia. Inoue/Ichigo has very little support despite the fact that Inoue is 10th in the popularity contest. Where you are getting mixed up is Inoue’s popularity here and in Canada, she is far more popular in thes state then in Japan. People like her, so they think she has more chance/importance then she really does.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing Audience response is something ALL literature has to consider. And you may not agree with me, but I think if the majority of the audience says there is a triangle; it exists. Just like in all those classical texts; when the authors are asked, "did you intend for so and so metaphor to happen?" The answer is often, "No, but the metaphor is there and the readers see it. Therefore it is effective." If you look at the vast amount of ship-wars around this pairing, they would not exist if a triangle did not exist. 'TECHNICALLY' we can say it's not a true love triangle. But that does not matter. Effectively, there is one, and that is the important thing. |
See as I don’t see the love triangle as important, just a piece of the side story, I don’t see people’s reaction to as important either. Shippers see what they want (we see that all the time don't we? Remember Asma Laksa from NF and BF). Shipper will exsist regardless of what the story shows, One Piece, the author himself said that all his characters are "in love" with adventure but there is still a huge shipping population for that manga. So I think the techncial aspect might be more important then you think.
Quote:
| Well then the question I ask you is, why do the dependency of these outcomes have to depend on character relationships? Why can't the dependency of IchiRuki and IchiHime be on the progression, comparisons and parallels in the plot? Why can't the dependency of IchiRuki and IchiHime be the observed reaction of the audience? |
They are but the progression, comparisions and parallels should arise out of the characters interactions. If everything (or just about everything) is in Rukia’s favor is it really a love triangle/mutual relationship? The reason whythe dependency of IchiRuki and IchiHime can't be the observed reaction of the audience is because of the manga evidence isn't there to substain it.
Quote:
| The analogy doesn't exactly fit... but right now, I feel as if you have the theoretical aspect of a science experiment down, but haven't factored in outside sources like marketting, audience, authorial preference and factors that traditionally we scorn. 'A good author doesn't let readers sway his opinion' just like a good theory won't be changed because of outside factors. But the RESULT changes. The RESULT is that in the west, we have two prominent groups of people who are pitted against each other because of love for a character and how they see the manga. If we just consider the development of character relationships in the story, it is overly simplistic, IMHO. We also need to look at the plot. Does the plot compare Orihime and Rukia? Yes, HM and SS. Does the plot compare IchiRuki and IchiHime? Yes. One is vague and one is one-sided, but that doesn't change the results, in my view. |
Quote:
| Ichigo's reception to Orihime's advances is only one factor. In literature, other factors are involved. I disagree that there are no IchiHime hints. So if I picture the manga without Rukia, I can name several scenes and plot points which causes the audience to assume the enventual IchiHime pairing. And considering the genre, that is enough. Not all genres require the same kind of build-up for a pairing to be considered cannon. Would IchiHime be a well developed pairing? No. But would it convince the majority of the readers that this is what Kubo intended? Yes. |
There is another place where we differ, I can’t picture the manga without rukia because with out rukia we don’t have a story. If we were say that Bleach was the real world, Ichigo and Inoue would probably never have developed the way that they have, so this is a moot point for me. But even i could, their relationship was directly effected by rukia without that efffect there was no way they were moving forward. Specific instances that aren’t put into a higher context have very little meaning. They aren't dispositive but circumstantial Those little scenes aren’t enough to take way from Ichigo/Rukia because I still can’t see them together in any way shape or form.
Quote:
| So without Rukia, IchiHime is poorly developed, but most readers would say that's the obvious pairing. The dispute comes from the fact that we get opposing trends with IchiRuki and IchiHime. |
Quote:
| Similarly, without Orihime, IchiRuki would be undisputed. It would be better developed, but also more vague than IchiHime. But most readers would read Bleach and say Ichigo and Rukia are the obvious pairing, if one exists. And I can confidently say that these scenes and trends are intentional on Kubo's part. He intentionally wrote Bleach so that part of the audience would be convinced of IchiRuki, and a lesser portion would see IchiHime. Therefore, if Kubo effectively created this split in his audience, I highly doubt he is going to not address it. |
But again he may not address in the way that you want, you are trying to draw binding connections to the character because of a potential conflict, what if he just has one, two or all three die? Then it is resolved is it not? That is why I say that it is stronger to look for evidence in the individual relationship as opposed to point to create a point system based on interpretation of individual scenes and taking away from one couple potential relationship because of an precived interaction of another relationship.
Even he did split the fans on purpose, the relationship isn't the main focus of the story and therefore could have another purose for it. That is why you should be careflu before you imply a lable like mutualy dependant I think it will mess up your analysis if you aren't careful.
Quote:
| Forgot about Shuffle... but yes, this is off topic... |
Watch Gurren lagan I think you would like it…..
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing ^^' Well, why is it limited to a mutually dependent love triangle based on character relationships when IchiRuki vs. IchiHime obviously isn't? |
When trying to predict future events in a story, if you want to do it accurately, you can’t base it on the precived results, Shuffle and Canvas II will show that just focusing on results is a bad idea. I wrote my Love triangle Essay because I don’t think there is a love triangle, I see the potential for a love triangle but I don’t focus on the ends I focus on the means, And the means just aren’t there to turn this into a real love triangle.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing I think I've been arguing that we have a love triangle that is communicated through different media, not just character relationships, but one every bit as important and perhaps even more effective. The effect I talk about here are 'result' based, determined by what kind of interpretations readers take away from it. I remember your take on an effective triangle, but I'm afraid I disagree with your priorities. Bleach is a commercial story, and while we don't like to talk about markets, it is a significant pressure. Just like the pressure all editors have on authors. |
I disagree, the most effective love triangle are going to displayed through the character interactions. Shows where the love triangle is the primary focus will use those things you mentioned as a supplement. Despite the fact that it is a commercial story it still has to remain consistent and because the author had no intention could mean that he intents to resolve the discussion in away that no foresaw.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing So if we look at the results, Kubo has split his readership into people that care and people that don't care. Then in the people that care, he has split them into IchiRuki supporters and IchiHime supporters. I know the proportion of IchiHime supporters are less in number and all, but that's not the point. The point is that there IS a conflict presented in his story, and it IS causing the audience to react to it. Therefore, by the basic literature rules of contracts and broken contracts, he is inevitably pressured to resolve this conflict. Unless Kubo is saying something SPECIFIC by not pairing Ichigo with either girls (and so far, he hasn't been that kind of writer and takes risks in other ways), the story will inevitably end with IchiRuki or IchiHime. |
This is the biggest problem with your analysis.
Kubo hasn’t split his readership, the people he is writing for are not split. Inoue/Ichigo has very little fan base in Japan. Now if you think that Inoue’s popularity here is enough for him to make the potential love triangle a bigger deal then it is, maybe you have a argument otherwise…..
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing I think where we disagree the most are the fundamental priorities of a story. Sort of like the whole 'write for yourself/ideal reader' vs. 'write for the audience' debate. I am of the opinion that writers do both, but in the end, they are judged by how well they write for an audience, especially for a commercial piece like Bleach. |
You are saying here that he cares how people judge his writing, but you forget that the fact that people read his writing is judgment enough. That is the important thing, he doesn’t have to worry about the “results” you mentioned because people already read it. He focuses on the story that he wants to tell.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Starwing Same here. XP |
On a final note, I think in the realms of practical application and effect, there may be a love triangle, I was merely noting that arguments based on an assumed mutual relationship aren’t going to be as strong as arguments based on the individual relationship dynamic.
?
Damn it Star, you see what you do to me….Ok I will stop here in our debate to let some others get in on this. I think we have both made our points though I feel sorry for some people who are just coming in, they are probably like “what the hell are they talking about?”
Debbiechan,
If I didn’t think it was inappropriate (and maybe a little weird) I would kiss you; that was a great post I think
http://sinta1.livejournal.com/
Starwing:
Yes, back on track. ^^' I apologize for the divergence, but I think such a discussion is valuable. I think if we're debating or discussing pairings, we should also examine the reason why we disagree.
@Sinta,
One last post, I promise. ^^ It was an enjoyable exchange while it lasted.
IchiHime's popularity in western society is a result of the ghost in writing. What is in effect here is the difference in culture and expectations of the audience, and the transition of the story from Kubo's mind to readers.
Ghosts are not mistakes, merely factors the writer has not taken into account. But it is the job of every writer out there to address their ghosts. Just like sources of errors in a lab, unavoidable, expected, and even useful at times, but they must be addressed.
I do remember that in Japan and Asian societies, IchiHime is not popular. However, it is not nonexistent either. That's what I hear from my pen pals in Taiwan anyways. Japan is Kubo's intended audience and whatever he does there, we can assume is intentional.
However, Kubo is now working on an international stage. He needs to worry about more than Japan. We are not his intended audience, but no matter, we ARE his audience and all authors MUST address their readers in some way. Shoot them down, appease them, make things clear for them, ignore them intentionally... Whatever the author's intention is, if you want to market, you deal with your readers. Because the readers are your only windows into whether your story works or not.
Honestly, if readers get a different reaction than what the author intended, especially if is a mass reaction, that is the result of weak writing. As a reader, if I don't like a story, that tells the author that I am not his audience. However, if I misinterpret a story and see evidence where there shouldn't be evidence, that is a sign of weak writing on the author's part; that there are factors he has neglected that should be addressed.
HarryxHermione was a ghost because Rowling neglected to address the factor that due to prolonged proximity, readers will react in certain ways. She may have never intended for this pairing to happen, but it DID happen for the readers and so she eventually addressed it by pairing Harry with Ginny. IF she had the foresight and wanted to avoid this reader reaction, she could've included hints of Harry or Hermione being distinctly UNINTERESTED.
If IchiHime fans see evidence, and that wasn't Kubo's intention, then that means Kubo has neglected something. He forgot to factor in Orihime's popularity, and that in gaining sympathy for her, he also gained support for IchiHime. THAT is what it means.
When you say there is no evidence for IchiHime, that is an opinion and I disagree with you. I don't think it's very strong evidence, but I think it's there and Kubo wrote them in intentionally.
In a writing process, you write for an ideal audience (yourself, basically), but in the editing process, that is when you fix your story for a real audience. I must ask, has Sinta gone through the editing/publishing process? If you have, you'll agree that that is a basic and critical step to improve your writing. We don't live in bubbles and authors don't write stories in bubbles; we write them because we want readers. This is why authorial voice is so important, and why editing is so important. No matter how much talent you have, if you don't care about your readers, you'll be less successful than another author who DOES care.
You say that no self respecting author would change the flow of his story to suit his audience. I agree. But also, any self respecting author would carefully observe audience reaction and evaluate whether he/she made any mistakes, and address those mistakes if he/she can.
Now I don't believe the comparisons of IchiRuki and IchiHime are a mistake. You ask if Kubo didn't use a girl next, where would my comparison be? The answer is, if HM didn't parallel SS so much and it wasn't Orihime who was kidnapped, there wouldn't be a comparison. If Japan loves IchiRuki so much more than IchiHime, allegedly, that's because by comparison, IchiHime is weaker. Not because the comparison does not exist.
I think IchiHime vs. IchiRuki was intentional. And even if it wasn't, it's still something Kubo has to address because it IS in his work, and I believe he IS addressing the issue through his comparisons and the natural progression of his plot.
Lol, I'll address your points in detail through pm though, when I have more time.
@Sinta,
One last post, I promise. ^^ It was an enjoyable exchange while it lasted.
Spoiler! <input ... >
IchiHime's popularity in western society is a result of the ghost in writing. What is in effect here is the difference in culture and expectations of the audience, and the transition of the story from Kubo's mind to readers.
Ghosts are not mistakes, merely factors the writer has not taken into account. But it is the job of every writer out there to address their ghosts. Just like sources of errors in a lab, unavoidable, expected, and even useful at times, but they must be addressed.
I do remember that in Japan and Asian societies, IchiHime is not popular. However, it is not nonexistent either. That's what I hear from my pen pals in Taiwan anyways. Japan is Kubo's intended audience and whatever he does there, we can assume is intentional.
However, Kubo is now working on an international stage. He needs to worry about more than Japan. We are not his intended audience, but no matter, we ARE his audience and all authors MUST address their readers in some way. Shoot them down, appease them, make things clear for them, ignore them intentionally... Whatever the author's intention is, if you want to market, you deal with your readers. Because the readers are your only windows into whether your story works or not.
Honestly, if readers get a different reaction than what the author intended, especially if is a mass reaction, that is the result of weak writing. As a reader, if I don't like a story, that tells the author that I am not his audience. However, if I misinterpret a story and see evidence where there shouldn't be evidence, that is a sign of weak writing on the author's part; that there are factors he has neglected that should be addressed.
HarryxHermione was a ghost because Rowling neglected to address the factor that due to prolonged proximity, readers will react in certain ways. She may have never intended for this pairing to happen, but it DID happen for the readers and so she eventually addressed it by pairing Harry with Ginny. IF she had the foresight and wanted to avoid this reader reaction, she could've included hints of Harry or Hermione being distinctly UNINTERESTED.
If IchiHime fans see evidence, and that wasn't Kubo's intention, then that means Kubo has neglected something. He forgot to factor in Orihime's popularity, and that in gaining sympathy for her, he also gained support for IchiHime. THAT is what it means.
When you say there is no evidence for IchiHime, that is an opinion and I disagree with you. I don't think it's very strong evidence, but I think it's there and Kubo wrote them in intentionally.
In a writing process, you write for an ideal audience (yourself, basically), but in the editing process, that is when you fix your story for a real audience. I must ask, has Sinta gone through the editing/publishing process? If you have, you'll agree that that is a basic and critical step to improve your writing. We don't live in bubbles and authors don't write stories in bubbles; we write them because we want readers. This is why authorial voice is so important, and why editing is so important. No matter how much talent you have, if you don't care about your readers, you'll be less successful than another author who DOES care.
You say that no self respecting author would change the flow of his story to suit his audience. I agree. But also, any self respecting author would carefully observe audience reaction and evaluate whether he/she made any mistakes, and address those mistakes if he/she can.
Now I don't believe the comparisons of IchiRuki and IchiHime are a mistake. You ask if Kubo didn't use a girl next, where would my comparison be? The answer is, if HM didn't parallel SS so much and it wasn't Orihime who was kidnapped, there wouldn't be a comparison. If Japan loves IchiRuki so much more than IchiHime, allegedly, that's because by comparison, IchiHime is weaker. Not because the comparison does not exist.
I think IchiHime vs. IchiRuki was intentional. And even if it wasn't, it's still something Kubo has to address because it IS in his work, and I believe he IS addressing the issue through his comparisons and the natural progression of his plot.
Lol, I'll address your points in detail through pm though, when I have more time.
And I love you both, Sinta and Starwing. *blows giant kiss*
Why can't more shipping discussions be like this!
According to what Starwing is saying (and it sounds like a ship theory out of quantum mechanics--the observer changes the experiment) then popularity of a pairing DOES make a difference. In other words, what MOST readers perceive to be true matters and if some readers perceive something else (and strongly, as is in the case of a IchiOri contingent against a larger IchiRuki fanbase) then we have, by definition, a conflict--whether or not the author intended it or not.
I'm a great fan of the pedagogical function of authorial intent--it's a solid base in the stormy waters of "anything goes/your interpretation is relevant to your social circumstances" post-modern criticism. So yes, I see completely where Sinta is coming from. Kubo's story doesn't have any conflict because in it, Orihime doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of Ichigo's returning her affection. But how about this--KUBO'S STORY HAS CONFLICT because he intended to place red herrings, doubts, and false leads before his readers?
The majority of the Ichigo and Orihime interaction of recent chapters taking place during Tanabata in real time was CERTAINLY no accident; that timing however was OUTSIDE the story--it was in the realm of interaction with the audience. The IchiOri clues within the story itself were amplified because of the "when the story is being told" timing. In the overall context of the story, though, most readers (in Japan and elsewhere) would tell you that the cards come down in favor of an eventual IchiRuki match (from the plot and characterization alone). Some of those guessing at authorial intent would say that Kubo is throwing clues, emphasizing Orihime's dilemma (only so he can solve it happily in the end) and setting up an eventual IchiOri match. Those not guessing at authorial intent but looking at the plain hard facts of the story and characters as if they were real people would probably be more likely to call IchiRuki a given. I believe most do; the majority of readers see IchiRuki over IchiOri in the manga. I, like Sinta and Starwing, am in that majority. I can see the plot turning IchiOri and eventually Ichigo falling for Orihime but that's "what could be" and Kubo would have to work to make it happen, whereas IchiRuki is "what is in the process of happening" simply because the bond between the two characters is stronger, evolving at a steady pace (Sinta's IRR) and is emphasized by progress of the story itself (thus far).
Why can't more shipping discussions be like this!
According to what Starwing is saying (and it sounds like a ship theory out of quantum mechanics--the observer changes the experiment) then popularity of a pairing DOES make a difference. In other words, what MOST readers perceive to be true matters and if some readers perceive something else (and strongly, as is in the case of a IchiOri contingent against a larger IchiRuki fanbase) then we have, by definition, a conflict--whether or not the author intended it or not.
I'm a great fan of the pedagogical function of authorial intent--it's a solid base in the stormy waters of "anything goes/your interpretation is relevant to your social circumstances" post-modern criticism. So yes, I see completely where Sinta is coming from. Kubo's story doesn't have any conflict because in it, Orihime doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of Ichigo's returning her affection. But how about this--KUBO'S STORY HAS CONFLICT because he intended to place red herrings, doubts, and false leads before his readers?
The majority of the Ichigo and Orihime interaction of recent chapters taking place during Tanabata in real time was CERTAINLY no accident; that timing however was OUTSIDE the story--it was in the realm of interaction with the audience. The IchiOri clues within the story itself were amplified because of the "when the story is being told" timing. In the overall context of the story, though, most readers (in Japan and elsewhere) would tell you that the cards come down in favor of an eventual IchiRuki match (from the plot and characterization alone). Some of those guessing at authorial intent would say that Kubo is throwing clues, emphasizing Orihime's dilemma (only so he can solve it happily in the end) and setting up an eventual IchiOri match. Those not guessing at authorial intent but looking at the plain hard facts of the story and characters as if they were real people would probably be more likely to call IchiRuki a given. I believe most do; the majority of readers see IchiRuki over IchiOri in the manga. I, like Sinta and Starwing, am in that majority. I can see the plot turning IchiOri and eventually Ichigo falling for Orihime but that's "what could be" and Kubo would have to work to make it happen, whereas IchiRuki is "what is in the process of happening" simply because the bond between the two characters is stronger, evolving at a steady pace (Sinta's IRR) and is emphasized by progress of the story itself (thus far).
Lastly, something for people to debate the concept of "canon" over. The databooks haven't been translated yet, and although Kubo is credited with writing them, no one believes that he's actually written every word. Nonetheless the books have new Kubo "approved material" and some interesting summaries of panels in the manga. Can we say that there's been clarification of authorial intent? Insofar as this one page goes, I'm still collecting informations about the nuances of the Japanese (in particular, 'omou' 想い in regards to Ishida's feelings having a strong romantic connotation) but maybe more on that later.
Translation by MelodyMix of Bleach Asylum
of Ishida and Orihime page from the SOULs databook:
Here is what it says
“She is not just a nakama…” Accepting Ichigo’s feelings towards Rukia, Orihime’s heart painfully sways. And inside Ishida, a new feeling develops. “I don’t want to make her sad” (referring to Orihime). With that thought, he wishes for Ichigo’s victory.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 03:39 am (UTC)Because you like, say everything I say about Ishida. Re: his being shot down by Orihime relating to him as on the level of Tatsuki or another girl, re: his like for her, re: Ichigo not being romantically inclined toward anyone but warming up to Orihime, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE MAYURI ISSUE YES PLZ KT PLEASE TO BE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THIS IS NOT A THING THAT WILL PLEASE ISHIDA.
Seriously, given Soul Society and now this, given that Ichigo reaches Orihime and has the dramatic meeting and instead Ishida is rescued by the one person he probably really hates ... Is, just, Ishida may care for Orihime, but I figure the Mayuri issue will/should be the biggest for him after this. I mean. mflds MAYURI, MAN. Unless KT ignores possible character development, again. D:
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 04:21 am (UTC)I'm really looking forward to the fallout from this arc, actually, considering that we've got two deserters (Renji, Rukia) -- I want to see what Soul Society does to them. Ishida, too, I'm really interested in -- Mayuri rescuing him? And oh man, oh man, Rukia and the whole Kaien thing. I just-- argh.
I think Kubo's been incredible with character development, though, looking back over the manga. We've seen Orihime develop from just a girl with a crush on Ichigo to one of the story's key figures, Rukia from a manipulative bitch-queen (and she *was* an absolute bitch) to being suicidal with angst and guilt, and I really don't need to mention Renji considering he was one of the first antagonists and has now become a main character. I don't think Kubo would have brought Mayuri in without having something planned out, even if it is just Uryuu angsting in a hole for a week or so afterwards. :D
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 07:07 am (UTC)Mm, they're deserters, and then Soul Society itself did arrive, so I wonder. Much as the problem of the drifters was ignored in the greater scale of Aizen's bizniz, it may be that Rukia and Renji slide by -- their injuries enough of a slap on the wrist? But, yeah, I'm very curious to see how Rukia will be coping once she's conscious again. And I flipped my shit when it was Mayuri -- I had a feeling, because who can resist the crazy scientist battle? But still, for Ishida, that's terrible.
Oh, no, I agree. Rukia and Orihime have been extraordinarily well-developed, just, wow. But, KT has at least once skimped on Ishida. The "Anti-Shinigami" promise was introduced as a big conflict for him, something that would force him to separate ties with all of his "friends", something fairly major given how socially retarded he was before/and is. He agrees, but it never really comes up. Like, Ishida isn't really given the opportunity to be tested or face the consequence of prioritizing power and the ability to help those friends over being with them (kind of like chad's poem about wielding the sword, I think, and not being able to embrace while wielding it). Instead, he finds a handy dandy loophole and is on his way. Which, you know, of course I'm glad he's there, and he did that, and I suppose the point is that the promise wasn't the point, except that the chapter in which he comes to that resolve has a juxtaposition with Ichigo, and except that we don't see him consciously putting the assistance of Orihime & friends over the pride attached to his promise sworn on his honors as a Quincy.
Or Ishida is too clever for you with his loopholes, I dunno D: but something could've been done there that wasn't. SORRY FOR THE BABBLE, IDK IDK
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 12:59 pm (UTC)I... think we'll see what happens with that afterwards. He made the promise to Ryuuken, after all, and Ryuuken's not there in Hueco Mundo. Like with after Soul Society and he was all, "lol, we're enemies Kurosaki", I think something similar might happen. He's found a loophole but whether or not Ryuuken accepts that is a different matter. It all depends on how Kubo plays it, I guess.
IT'S OKAY I LIKE BABBLE.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-30 11:24 am (UTC)Mm, true point. Like -- Ishida didn't sacrifice his friends in order to get his powers back and do NOTHING with them. Though he made that promise, it would be absurd to do all that for his powers to be renewed and then ignore the fact that there were enemies of that kind to face, ESPECIALLY considering Orihime's involvement and his possible affection for her. Obviously Ryuuken won't accept the loophole, but .. yeah, like, "Orihime's been kidnapped!" "... Hmm, angst for awhile, or immediately get on the rescue that needs to happen immediately immediately okay?"
WHEW, I WAS WORRIED I CAME OFF LIKE A HYPERSENSITIVE LOON
no subject
Date: 2007-11-30 02:05 pm (UTC)Ishida... I think with Ishida it's multi-faceted as to why he wanted his powers back -- it can be argued he did it because of the upcoming battles, it can be argued that he did it because he really, really wants to waste Mayuri (and thus putting a revenge angle onto it), it can be argued that he did it because dammit, he's a Quincy and needs his powers to identify as such, and it can also be a DAMMIT THREE DAYS AGO I WAS POWERFUL D8<.
Ryuuken... hm. I hate calling judgement on Ryuuken just because he's such a dick XD but at least this loophole is, for Uryuu, relatively water-tight. He's gone to rescue Inoue. The shinigami just happen to be doing the same thing (and also, as Chad's not a shinigami, it's an alliance of non-factions blah blah blah).
NAH NOT REALLY.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-30 02:35 pm (UTC)Mm, what's interesting to me is that Ishida angsted relatively little on the surface after he sacrificed his powers, and he didn't even kill Mayuri through it. He's pretty calm as he feels himself on the brink of losing them, and goes despite that to try and rescue Rukia. He continues on with the team in Soul Society, obviously never brings it up, and acts normally otherwise -- still calling Ichigo his enemy, when he could hardly be that on a power level. (And Orihime proves astute, but, yeah). P-point is, though so much of Ishida's identity and pride for the last however many years has rode on that label, he's pretty chill about not having them anymore. And he takes that entire chapter to think it over -- and why not, why would you choose to be useless if you could be capable? Given his personality, he'd obviously choose to be a help to his friends, even if he couldn't be with them.
Ahhhh, but the fact that Ryuuken loves Uryuu despite his dickishness kills me. L-like that flashback when Uryuu's like, WHAT DOES DAD WANT TO PROTECT? MONEY? and Souken gives him this LOOK and touches his head and is all, some day you'll know, omg, and then Ishida's like, "Whelp I don't know, so..." .. I MEAN HOW OBVIOUS.
Wow, babble. Uh, yes, Uryuu's loophole works. Also Ryuuken isn't all that surprised. I really doubt he didn't expect something like it, and he did choose to give Uryuu back his powers, though it would put him in danger. I doubt Ryuuken is completely unaware of the oncoming tides of war, however much he isolates himself, and I really doubt he thought Uryuu wouldn't try to get involved given back his powers. You can fight against a common powerful enemy without joining the shinigami. SO I DUNNO WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
ON AND ON I GO.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 04:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 07:08 am (UTC)